Transcript:
Pete Wright:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Trilio Insights on TruStory FM. I’m Pete Wright. The OpenInfra Days North America 2024 Conference marked a resurgence of interest in OpenStack driven partly by the search for VMware alternatives, but a set of compelling announcements and robust growth in community make the conference ripe for an insights conversation, so we bring our intrepid world travelers, our own David Safaii and Kevin Jackson to share their own observations from their time in Indiana.
Welcome, gents. You are home and safe. You made it home from the great state of Indiana. I have to say, I need to tell you, first of all, that the first word that leapt to my mind when I read your blog post on the event was adorable. Why? Because there is a picture of you two being tourists at the Indy sign with David playing the eye. That was adorable. I did not expect that from a conference like this, but kudos to you both for playing the role.
David Safaii:
Hey. We can have fun too.
Kevin Jackson:
Yeah, both. I think David’s just proven that there is an I in team. That’s what he was going for.
David Safaii:
Wow.
Pete Wright:
Ouch. Oh, wow. Well, it seems like the event was an all-around success. Can we start with a bit of a table setting for us? You talk about in the blog post that we have this resurgence in OpenStack. From your perspective on the ground at the conference, what’s going on there? What are people really focusing on?
David Safaii:
So it was a fantastic event and we had a great time, but what I thought was really interesting, and really, Kevin, this is really for you, because it’s been an interesting journey, you having started early in the community and coming really full circle here. I mean, for me, I jumped into the OpenStack community back in, I think it was probably 2014. But you’ve got a much longer journey here. It must’ve been really interesting to see a lot of familiar faces.
Kevin Jackson:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I’ve been in the community since pretty much day one. Few days after day one, I guess, I remember one of the first conferences in London in the UK. I remember some small events where this project called OpenStack was just properly in its infancy. I remember causing issues with the original developers saying this thing doesn’t work, and then being invited over to one of the summits, one of the very, very early summits as pretty much as customer number one, and certainly the first person to take advantage of the travel assistance program.
So, they didn’t have it. They realized that this is a good thing to fly customers over into the community to discuss issues, but yeah, to see it full circle, I’m kind of half jealous of the people who are new into OpenStack, because I’ve got scars, I’ve got bruises. OpenStack now is almost like click next, next, next, install. So it’s a different set of customers, a different set of challenges. Today we’re looking at people migrating into OpenStack from other mature platforms. Back in the day it was, you’re taking a bit of a leap of faith of something that could be good in the future, but it’s a solid platform today.
Pete Wright:
I also didn’t expect this to be a kids today conversation, but here we are.
David Safaii:
But I got to tell you, Pete, it’s a bit of a Groundhog’s Day, because a lot of the stuff that we see and the conversations that we had at this conference is people either one, coming home and coming back to OpenStack or two, adopting it as net new infrastructure. Kevin, this is the conversation you initially had. It was the conversation early on in the community when I was engaged there. So, it’s a very interesting time and place.
Kevin Jackson:
It’s a different place, but with familiar faces. I remember that walking into that refreshment area, the first thing you see is all colleagues, a time gone by and being able to give them a hug and reminisce of things. So yeah, this community is the community and I think that’s what really makes OpenStack.
Pete Wright:
Yet, here we are. We’ve used resurgence and Groundhog Day to describe this event. Can you give me the constituent arguments for what makes this a resurgence, a Groundhog Day for you?
David Safaii:
People that are looking for alternatives. They’re looking for alternative infrastructure and places for their applications. That of course being driven by the acquisition of VMware and that’s why it’s driving people to do the research, driving people to new POCs and new pilots and learning new technologies too, where OpenStack is no longer new, but there are other conversations outside of OpenStack. The ability to leverage Kubernetes or KubeVirt for that matter, as again, all alternatives, but that’s the catalyst.
Kevin Jackson:
The interesting thing is the original motivation of when I was in… I know it doesn’t quite work for a podcast, but in air quotes, of “customer number one,” was we were migrating from VMware to something else. It was cloud at that point. It was the whole Amazon was relatively new, the Azures were some a blueprint somewhere. So there was this other platform and that was a VMware to OpenStack conversation, and that’s going back what, 14 years ago? So nothing has really changed in terms of why people move over to OpenStack, but the catalyst to move them over is what has changed the landscape today. Plus back then, it wasn’t just a case of choosing to go to OpenStack because there wasn’t that much choice. Today, it’s a viable platform. It’s a just use the platform and let’s be honest, wherever OpenStack originally grew up from, it wasn’t in the plans that it’s going to be a VMware alternative.
It was always meant to be a public cloud platform. It’s meant to be a public cloud, but on your own terms. But today, people are seeing it as a virtualization platform and I think that’s the really interesting area that we’re in because I like to capitalize on that kind of area of when we talk of migrations, it’s not just you are migrating over to another hypervisor, you’re migrating over to another hypervisor with a lot of options now, and I think that that is going to be the secret to a lot of things. But yeah, so when we say the resurgence, or as I say, I was there 14 years ago doing exactly this kind of thing, it’s just a hell of a lot easier these days
Pete Wright:
Sure. I mean, it sounds like… What do my kids say? The vibe was better than probably it was even 14 years ago. Sounds like the sentiments were quite positive.
Kevin Jackson:
Absolutely. I mean, I think the customers and people standing on stage talking about migration stories, the people that we talked to, David, in terms of the migrating over into OpenStack, there isn’t a case of like, “Oh, there isn’t so much talk of does OpenStack support this, that, and the other.” There is going to be a difference. I think people are grown up enough to realize that VMware and OpenStack are two different platforms and they have to accept that they are slightly different. I think there’s a general expectation that there is a 80% rule come in play that, Hey, I can just move things over. It’s not really always the case, but yeah, I think being able to just use these platforms today is a big game changer.
David Safaii:
Kevin, I think you raised a good point because you end up having people that have come back to the table. We saw Jonathan Mills over at NASA, Goddard Space Center talk about how they started with OpenStack years ago. They were a Trilio customer and then had moved away for various reasons, and then they announced that they are back, they’re back and they’re going to do this at scale. Because they understand the benefits of OpenStack and what it can provide their environment. That was an exciting announcement.
Pete Wright:
It sounds like not necessarily a surprise to you, that particular announcement, but I am interested in the things that you both found surprising at the event. Anything come out of it that you found was provocative that you didn’t see coming?
David Safaii:
Good question.
Kevin Jackson:
I mean, I guess I think the Rackspace announcement, I was expecting Rackspace being one of the founders, obviously along with NASA, I think having them both at the event was really good. Obviously it’s no surprise because obviously the schedule is published in advance, so you know who’s going to be there, but I think the messaging and the gravitas between some of the announcements, I think that’s more of the surprise. I think the commitment behind this, the fact that it’s a… I don’t know, Rackspace, they admitted themselves that they left the community or they let things simmer. They had a business plan. It didn’t necessarily involve OpenStack as a primary goal, but to see them on stage basically shouting at the world that they are back, they’re committed, and this is the future, I think that is a very important message.
David Safaii:
That was huge. I thought, Kevin, I don’t know if you feel otherwise, the conversation with Rackspace and their presentation, it felt very honest when they talked about their history. It felt very honest when they talked about how they moved away and why they’re back. It was really, I think everyone in our crowd really appreciated that, and it was exciting to see the positioning going forward.
Kevin Jackson:
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, Kevin Carter, I used to work with Kevin. James Denton. I used to work with him. I helped and contributed to his book, and likewise, he’d written a book with myself. So, we know each other. They’re very honest people and I think Rackspace did the right thing and come out and say, “Look, this is what happened.” There’s reasons for it, and they came out much better for it. That whole transparency piece is incredibly important. It’s very refreshing, and yeah, they did it right.
Pete Wright:
So, what is the significance of the Rackspace announcement on a technical level? When you look at the implications of their sort of shouting from the rooftops that they’re back, how does it align with broader trends that we’re seeing right now?
Kevin Jackson:
Well, certainly the influx of people that are coming in to talk to us is indicative of this trend. I think Rackspace coming back and announcing their commitment for OpenStack really reaffirms a lot of the conversations that we have. As Trilio, we can shout so much about the work that we do with our customers, but if you flip it around, there’s a lot of OpenStack out there. Not everybody has the opportunity to stand on stage and shout that they run OpenStack. I think that’s a little bit endemic with a lot of the previous OpenStack surveys.
There’s a regular annual survey of people submitting the specs of their cloud where they run all this kind of stuff that takes time to do stuff. A lot of people just run OpenStack in the back. It’s not a visible presence, so not many people get to shout about this kind of stuff. So for Rackspace to be able to shout on behalf of people, I think this is a really good thing. We’re working on really, really large OpenStack clouds and again, they don’t all have the opportunity for confidentiality reasons, privacy reasons, whatever it is to stand on stage and to talk about this. So, it’s really important that Rackspace and others continue to do so.
Pete Wright:
Well, especially that Rackspace is such an authentic presenting voice to be able to do that and be the voice box for those who can’t. That’s a fascinating position that they just are immediately back in.
David Safaii:
What that does for the community at large is tremendous. The ecosystem itself, when you have someone like Rackspace that raises their hands and jumps back in, they’re spending the resources to help. They’re going to have to educate people, they’re going to have to market and educate, and how that trickles down is that means that analysts and journalists and other people that follow Rackspace are going to have to learn and may start learning about OpenStack too and they’re going to talk about it. So this network effect, just because of what Rackspace has done is really important to everyone in the ecosystem.
Pete Wright:
Let’s talk briefly about your panel, Kevin.
Kevin Jackson:
So, it was quite clear that VMware to OpenStack was a hot topic. They obviously got a number of submissions from a number of vendors wanting to talk about their experiences with migrating customers from VMware to OpenStack, whether it’s from an open source point of view or from a supported vendor point of view. So, they changed the format of individual presentations. I was going to stand on stage and talk about where we fit into the journey. Red Hat, we’re going to explain their tooling. VEXXHOST, we’re going to talk about their tooling, and ZConverter, talking about ZConverter to those over the pond, about how they do their migrations as well.
So instead, we were on a panel. It was a good panel. Wasn’t long enough. The organizers admitted this. You can imagine, there’s four people who’ve got strong voices and opinions about VMware to OpenStack and very experienced people. So a 25-minute slot didn’t really, really cut it. But Jimmy from the OpenInfra Foundation did a good job of corralling us and asking the questions, where I felt like we could’ve talked for hours on the topic.
Pete Wright:
Where I’m hanging on this subject is given that announcement in particular, what is the agenda of the panelists for that audience? What is their call to action given what you are talking about?
Kevin Jackson:
I can flip it around another way and look at the key takeaway. You can imagine the intent is obviously to encourage people and give the assurances that OpenStack is a viable place to land for your virtual machine.
Pete Wright:
It’s safe. Yeah, OpenStack is safe.
Kevin Jackson:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. To have well-known vendors on stage talking about how we do things is very important for people wanting to go down this journey. We were covering topics definitely about assurances, where they are in their journey, making sure the fact that they can come to vendors like Trilio or Red Hat to get the support as they go and migrate their virtual machine. So I flip around, it’s about the takeaways. It’s about what they’re opening for wanting to tell the community, and it’s absolutely correct, it’s a safe way to do things. There’s a viable place for VMware evacuees, and there’s vendors that are willing to help.
David Safaii:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of the people in the crowd are learning they haven’t even started that migration journey, perhaps. I think that what the panel addressed is a lot of the learnings. I mean, Kevin and I are engaged in a lot of these conversations out in the field around the world, and some of them are huge and everyone’s got their own journey. So if we can help impart some words of wisdom along the way, we could be helpful.
I think Kevin addressed the crowd and said, “Look, one of your biggest pain points is going to be analysis paralysis. If you’re going to go and you’re going to migrate, don’t get held up in this. Let’s understand what you can move, what is possible, and start doing things appropriately.” So I think for a lot of folks, it’s a scary leap. It doesn’t have to be painful, but just don’t get, because before you know it, you’re going to pay that financial ransomware that’s hanging over your head unless you start moving some VMs.
Pete Wright:
Coming at it again from Trilio’s perspective, you both are their representatives of both Trilio and to some extent, the open stack community, the OpenInfra community. What’s next for Trilio based on a conference such as this key takeaways, key things you’re going to be rolling into your to-do list come 8:00 A.M. Monday morning, what does that look like?
David Safaii:
I’d say I think what’s really interesting is the evolution of the technology right now, how OpenStack is evolving and yeah, I really would love Kevin, your take on this, because the community version, it’s all the other distributions around it, whether it’s Canonical or Mirantis or all these folks, how they are rolling out OpenStack and even Red Hat for that matter. Red Hat’s latest version of OpenStack, which is their Version 18, and it’s called ROSO, Red Hat OpenStack Services, on OpenShift really becomes a powerful endeavor because from a Red Hat perspective, it’s about the pursuit of OpenShift and OpenStack becomes a service now on top of Kubernetes. Kevin, I think as we move forward, that’s the path. You may be able to talk to that.
Kevin Jackson:
There’s a future of OpenStack, which you can clearly tell it’s an evolved platform. A lot of the distributions, like you’ve just said, David, there’s distributions out there, which is based basically on Kubernetes these days. Which is an interesting point because if we go back again, I don’t want to dwell too back on much now on history, it’s easy to do this in the world of OpenStack, but I remember when people were suggesting things like Kubernetes with OpenStack or OpenStack with Kubernetes, and all the jokes came flying around, especially because Kubernetes was the new kid on the block.
If you look at the interest in these kind of platforms, Kubernetes went up, OpenStack kind of just disappeared as a platform for telcos. It’s found its niche and everybody kind of accepted that in the world. Where we are now ironically is the fact that people have worked out that Kubernetes is infinitely useful in a lot of scenarios and certainly plays a part in OpenStack itself.
For people who will listening, this is not to pull people off. The architecture is such now that it is about weirdly, simplicity. The architectures are well understood, the vendors that are pushing these distributions out there so people can move to them from Red Hat to Mirantis and Canonical, there’s definitely a theme of ease of management, ease of scale. And yes, they are based on Kubernetes like underneath, but that should not put people off whatsoever. It’s used appropriately. I think as we go into the future, we’re going to see a lot more of this being very, very normal, certainly for everyday use where people need to end up from VMware to OpenStack.
David Safaii:
I’ll just leave it at this. I mean, I think where I am excited about going forward and this sort of a rollout of OpenStack is for the fact that Trilio is a native data protection solution for the entire open infrastructure that’s provided. So we can go into an environment and Mr. or Ms. customer, we can protect your OpenStack and we can protect the Kubernetes, the applications and everything that resides on Kubernetes underneath. There’s not many people who can say they can do that, candidly. So now you can adopt a platform and have them know that it’s a resilient offering. Know that you can recover no matter what happens along the way. I’m very excited about this next phase.
Kevin Jackson:
I can’t stress enough that we’re OpenStack is head in and the alignment with Trilio. We are the data protection service for OpenStack and Kubernetes. We know both platforms. We see the collision of these two products being used very appropriately and it’s very, very exciting time. As David said for us, we’ve got all the ingredients that is required for these platforms, and it’s colliding very, very nicely. Those big clouds, you have people who stand on stage and tell them about all the great offerings and the relaunch of services, they’re based on this same two technologies of Kubernetes and OpenStack as well. So, that is really cool.
Pete Wright:
It’s nice to be at the intersection of these announcements and technologies when you’re completely ready for it, definitely.
Kevin Jackson:
Absolutely.
David Safaii:
It was a great conference. It was great to see the energy. It was great to see the collaboration and the conversation and the transparency among people. Candidly, it was my first visit to Indianapolis. It was great to see a new city, so I enjoyed that too.
Kevin Jackson:
For those folks that are looking at say, migrating from VMware to OpenStack. As I say, if you watch the recording of the panel, you’ll see I was quite honest, to David’s point, about the analysis paralysis. I think my advice was move forward, do your migrations. Learn with the low-hanging fruit.
I know there’s some caution. I know Maché from Red Hat started to say, “Okay, it’s not just as easy as just lift and shift.” I would argue I think there’s a lot of lift and shift that can be done, but certainly choose those easy migrations to actually learn about this new technology. Instead of looking at the top end of these complexes, people tend to go, “I need to solve the complex problems and the rest becomes easy.” I think it should be the other way around. Do the easy stuff and then start to learn what works, what doesn’t, and then you can tackle the hard stuff. So yeah, I always want to make sure that people are aware of that and we’ve got tools that certainly encourage that kind of approach.
Pete Wright:
Well I will put the link certainly to the panel in the show notes, and you’re listening to this, you’re thinking, “Oh, I don’t have time for a panel,” you guys, it’s only 25 minutes. You’ve got time for 25 minutes minutes. Thank you both so much for sitting down with me today. This is a great and learning experience, and for everybody listening, thank you for downloading and listening to the show. Thanks for your time and your attention. I encourage you to swipe up and look at those show notes for this episode where you can find links to all the resources we’ve talked about on the show today. On behalf of Kevin Jackson and David Safaii, I’m Pete Wright, and I’ll see you next time right here on Trilio Insights.
